creative leadership

2022, spring, creative leadership

Sustainability Focus

This collective work is based on an interview with a prominent leader in the Denver and abroad community. It integrates an ecological perspective on our current economic, environmental, and ethical crisis of today’s world.

Objective

The four-part, de-mystique with Alicia, is a passion project that explores the importance of rituals as they relate to rites of passage in a traditional Inipi sweat lodge ceremony. It explores how traditions have the potential to build community and achieve sustainability. Please see below - note that it may take a moment to view.

Intro

While getting some ink, I bonded with my tattoo artist over a Russian bathhouse in Denver, Lake Steam. Talking over a cup of coffee a year later, I learned that Lake Steam was just an extension of a relationship that she has with steaming in a traditional sweat lodge called an Inipi ceremony. I interviewed her about her experiences. Alicia is a strong leader in the community. She is a business owner of a tattoo studio and is coming into her elder hood to where she can run a lodge. 

Part 1

I've never experienced being in a sweat lodge and I don't know how you feel about talking, opening up about them because they're a spiritual practice. What are your initial thoughts and feelings? 

It’s trippy, that’s a tough subject. I think it's important to educate everybody about cultural stuff, right? There have definitely been sweat lodges and situations and ceremonies where we've been asked not to talk about it. I think that's at the discretion of the facilitator. We have an unspoken rule about not talking about, outside of that specific sweat lodge, what has been discussed in that lodge. Talking about it as an all-encompassing sort of educational aspect of what is, is safe, but not what happens, necessarily. There are some powerful things that happen, and I can sort of explain that and talk about it in really broad strokes. Healing happens and that can look like a lot of different things: tears happen, laughter happens, visits from spirits happen, but it's different every time and there's never a guarantee.  

What is a sweat lodge?

It has been described to me as a womb, and every culture especially the Norther Plains and the Mezzo America, has a little different variation of it. The one I originally learned is called Inipi, it’s a Lakota tradition, and it is made of Willow and cloth (skins going over the top of it, lots and lots of skins but now you see blankets, lots and lots of blankets). Willow is harvested in a ceremonial way and built in a certain way and with certain mathematics. It’s very beautiful. The whole thing from start to finish is mobile. You can move it and break it down and build it up in a day; whereas the pre-Columbian version, or the Temescal (which is the Mexican version), is an adobe structure often made of stone and mortar. Sometimes you will see a grass top. I've seen variations of it, but often it's just Adobe, and that's a little different in our culture. 

There are two different types of sweat lodges. There's what you have in your home, typically attached to like the outside of your home, for your own holistic reasons, like for healing and sickness - very private, very small for your family. And then ones that are community based which are more for ceremonies, ritual celebrations, that type of stuff. They both have their own different protocol, but we're still learning about some of those designs. Some of those designs are still coming forward. I have a friend who has a Temescal here and we’ve had to break it down and rebuild it a few times to figure out what works and what doesn't work. I mean, these are all ancient practices that are being re-examined and of course they look like one thing in the book, but they really act like something different when you get down to it. You actually learn to work with it. 

I'm very familiar with the Inipi because that was how I was introduced to it and it's a lovely structure. Willow is pretty local here (Colorado). You can find Willow pretty easily and put together an Inipi very easily.  Willow is used because it's a very bendable wood. Most of them are in that Dome shape, in that circular shape, which is also indicative of the womb—of the earth womb and what not. 

What do the rocks symbolize in the ceremony?

Those are grandpas, and in our way of life they are the eldest of the ancestors. They are the oldest, oldest of the energies. We call them stone people and we treat them really, really well because they treat us really, really well. So, whereas some people would not even understand, or disregard stones on the side of the road, we’re a little more connected with what those stones can do—what they can do for us. You want to stick with the stones that you know; that you make relationship with. They’re usually always first or second generation volcanic or assault stones. These are the ones that hold heat and last a long time. They can go for a long-time, as in hours, and go for a long-time, as in many ceremonies over. Depending on what the instructions have been given for that particular altar, we try to find rocks the size of your head. They will break into pieces, and you can still use them.

That’s huge, in the sauna, the rocks are much smaller.

And I’ve had those too. One of the ceremonies that I was invited to, or instructed to do, was a ceremony with 100 rocks. They ended up being a little bit smaller because you can't get 100 in there otherwise. But you know, every Inipi, every ceremony, is a little different in that way, so the number of rocks is specific and significant. One of the things that I remember striking me as being really interesting when I first got involved, is how much they (the rocks) were revered and how personified things were in that setting: the stone people having an energy, and us being in relationship, in conversation with them, being so grateful to them, and talking to them, and them talking to us—which is insane until you're there. 

Especially when you add water to them because they'll talk loud to you and tell you what's up. I love the stone people. I love that in many Inipi’s, or at least the ones that I grew up in, when those first 7 come in, nobody speaks. It's much more like having a reverence for them and holding space that they're about to heal us. I love that because it doesn’t feel unnatural, it doesn't feel based off mythology. It feels natural to introduce them to the group, and then knowing at the end of it, that they've provided this service.

Can you speak about the entrance of the sweat lodge, does it always face East? And what is the significance in direction?

It’s different for each Inipi or different for each tribe. Of course, many people will say East and West and North and South, but it really depends on the alter, because some people have gotten different instructions and it's hard sometimes to delineate what is human instruction and what is spirit instruction. I can say a good chunk of them are facing the East, but it also depends on the property, where the alter is, who set the tobacco down, and there's just a whole like thing there. So, typically it's very calculative. I'll just say that it’s not necessarily one way or the other. And sometimes it's just, ‘do what you got to do with what you have, with what you’re set up for.’ There is a specific way that the door faces, and that journey is a four-door journey, and that takes you into the four cardinal points. So, you're going to travel East first, then you travel West, North, and South, or however that altar goes. Some of them take you in a different direction, a different journey. I’ve been to enough now to know that there is a rhythm, and it will be disclosed to you when it's disclosed to you. You're not fully prepared for anything. However, it's very mathematical and in that respect a natural way for people to measure time and not let our mind focus so much on “How long have we been in here? When do we get out?” 

Do you have points where you feel physically exhausted?

I mean it really depends. For me, that surrender can take all four doors until that last bit, and then I'm like totally fine, or it can be a struggle every single moment from the minute they close the doors. It really depends on what you’re praying for, what you need. 

Are those prayers or those intentions shared with the group? 

It depends, we've always said that psychic prayers are just the same. People don't always have their words, nor should they have to, this is a space for them to go deep within. But there’s power to words and part of the design of this ceremony is to amplify a prayer, making it a bigger prayer, a community-based prayer. You take a prayer, speak it using words, and then suddenly all the collective consciousness goes to that, and with that comes power. This is considered a portal for that prayer to go out into the universe. So, it behooves you to sort of get your words about what you have to say, and there are times and places for that. Whoever is facilitating will let you know if you’re going to pray collectively out loud, or encourage, you know, one at a time so everyone can hear, or just going to sing straight through it. 

Everybody has a different relationship with it, so you'll hear people pray out loud, sometimes you’ll hear nothing at all, or there are times when you’re like, “are you done praying? Ok, let’s go!” It’s different for every group, but I encourage people, when I facilitate or when I’m part of the group that’s facilitating, to utilize their words because it really is a powerful time. Nobody's looking at you, you can’t see anybody, there's no right or wrong, you just express yourself. And some people don't express themselves at all, until they’re there in that moment and then suddenly it just like, “it comes out!” That’s been amazing to watch as well or hear (heh). But yeah, there are times for expressing yourself, times to listen, and then there are times to joke and chat a little bit. When the doors are open it's not so intense. It's a little bit of a release. 

How many people are typically in the lodge at one time?

It just depends on who you invite and how big it is. I've been in ones that had three or four people and then I've been in ones where there were 40.  Often what we’ll do is set up 2 layers, an outer circle and an inner circle, so you're sitting skin to skin with other people in front and back of you. The fires outside and you heat the rocks for two to four hours. Those rocks are then taken into the center, the door is shut, and the water is poured over the rocks.  So, you’re bummed if you’re in that front row and you're sensitive, cause you're not going anywhere.

Do you remember your first experience in a sweat lodge?

I don’t remember, but I do remember certain moments throughout all of them. 

How old were you when you started?  

I was a teenager, and it was in a Lakota Inipi. At that time the people I had been involved with were scary, they were scaring me, like it was scary; it was more, they weren't laying it out, so I had to discover it for myself without an explanation which is tough. I don't let people do that too much because I think it's important to give people a heads up so they can prepare. But that’s just not how it was at that time. The thing I remember about it is that at that time, the rules were (because there are some structured ones, that have lots of rules, that you had to take out all your body piercings and jewelry. I had already started getting pierced, right, because I was like a punk rocker and my reaction was, I gotta what?

But I did. I followed the rules because I wanted to be involved. It was this whole ordeal for me. Probably the hardest part for me was to take out all this stuff that I had put in, right there on the earth, in some changing room, with a bunch of elder Native Americans. And they're telling me like you have too, and I'm like: but why? And like, am I going to get burned by it? Like what level of cruciality is this?

I remember first few years being really hard for me, and I did feel initially that there was a lot of, I wouldn't say competition, but there was a lot of ‘you need to be strong, you need to sit strong, you need to not move, and you need to fucking tough it out.’ And I think that that was a good introduction for me because I see people not pushing themselves very hard, and like as soon as that heat hits and they get scared they want to get out. Whereas because I was introduced in the way I was, I go a little bit deeper, and I’m like, no I just need to push through this moment of panic and get what’s on the other side.

So, you believe there was a reason for the way that you were introduced to it.

Yeah, I think so. I never get out during the four doors. Sometimes people need a break, or whatever, but I know what's out there, you know, very clear on what’s out there, still unclear about what’s in here, so I want to spend as much time in here as I can. But I get so much out of it that I take as long as I can to take it all in and meditate during that time. 

Has that influenced the way you’ve introduced Xochitl (Alicia’s child) to Inipi?

They (non-binary) were raised in a sweat lodge way, right, so they were there since birth right. It’s such a different thing when you're brought into it consciously as an adult and a child. For me it was like, I'm interested in this I want to try it. Xochitl was only six weeks old when they were introduced to Inipi, you know, and when they are raised that way, they don't know any other way, right? For their birthdays, specifically for their sacred birthdays (which are 1, 4, 7, 9 and 12), they have a lodge. 

Now Xochitl is getting to that age where they've had some fun with it, or they’ve had a couple of negative experience; they've had moments where they were uncomfortable and so they're like really exercising their right not do it. But it's always there for them and they're very familiar with the protocol. They know that it's there. Typically, right now they'll come and join us for maybe one round. But when they were a baby, they were just on the tit in the lodge with us, and we’d take off their diaper, and they’re just there in a towel. Those are some beautiful memories, because for them it’s just the warmest nicest thing ever, their mom in the dark? Come on!

And nobody in the native community is bothered by a baby crying in the way other people are, or by a baby being upset. One of the other lovely things is a child lodge (because we do have lodges just for kids where it doesn't get as hot, and we leave the light on). My kid was probably more bothered by the lights being off, and being in the dark, then they were by the heat. So often for a kid lodge we would leave a little bit of a light, just a little crack in the door, or something like that. But if they come in with us for any period it's a blessing. As soon as they leave, we thank them, and we’re happy that they tasted it even for a second because it's something that they're going to be able to revisit throughout their lives. It is there to help them throughout their lives. So, when the kids come in it’s a blessing. When anybody leaves and they’ve given just a bit of their time, no matter how difficult of a time they had, we always are super grateful they tried. So that’s cool you know, even though I've been taught, ‘suck it up, sit through it,’ there's also many lodges where they’re grateful for people just to try. 

The transition is interesting from sitting in there all the time to now having a child where sometimes you must step out or stay out of a lodge with your kid. There's a little bit of a transition because I love them so much. I believe everybody who ends up in that lodge is supposed to be there. If something happens where you have to be watching and minding the kids, then you're not supposed to be in that one right then. It is something that they will always have for celebration reasons and for difficult times. 

I have learned with my child that they are not allowed to be in healing lodges. They can be in celebratory lodges, that works good for them, and they can be in like more familial type settings, but I don't put them in lodges, my child, where there's a healing going on. This is a different type of lodge where there are a lot of strangers. Because Xochitl is very sensitive and they have energy and their energy is affected very greatly, it's just not good for them, my child. But that's not for everybody, you know, those are your individual parent judgement calls. Right now, where Xochitl is at with it, is they are a helper: they'll check in on us, like from the outside, they will come in at the end and have spirit food. 

They are required to come and have spirit food at the end of everything. There's a blessing of this spirit food that goes around at the end. It's a sacred food that we make and is symbolic of our sustenance in a survival. We don't have a choice as a parent who gets to make those calls. Xochitl stands and hold space and has spirit food with us and if they're not there, I bring it home to them so that they can get that blessing, so even the prayers that happened with that lodge can be ingested. It can be meshed with them at the end of it all. So, right now Xochitl kind of in that space with the lodge, where they're like, ‘Nah it's too hot, meh, meh.” But we do bring it full circle and they like spirit food, so it’s not a big deal, they like the taste. 

Part 2.

Can you describe what the spirit food is?

It’s different for every tribe, but the basics are the four foods that sustain our life. They are also symbolic of the four parts of human anatomy. It’s explained different in varying groups, but the way it was explained to me, was that the corn, which is like a ground up toasted corn, is symbolic of our bones; the meat which is often traditionally bison, (it can also be deer or other meats, but it’s typically bison) is symbolic of the flesh; berries, typically choke cherries (that is the one that was taught to me, but you can do other berries) that's the blood; and water. Those four foods are created as a part of the ceremony, in a ceremonial way, and are brought to be shared at the end of the ceremony. It’s kinduv like the conclusion of the ceremony is to renourish yourself. There are sacred bowls, and they are cooked in a sacred way. That was taught to me at a young age. So, if you're going to sponsor a lodge, which means you're going to ask for one, ask for that help and have somebody do one for you, then you're going to create all these things for it. You're going to know how to make all these things to make it happen so there's some protocols around it. You get good at it though; I mean like I've done enough now that I can put it together pretty quickly and easily.

How many sweat lodges have you facilitated?

So, I'm just now coming into my elder hood to where I can run a lodge, whereas for years and years, I was just sponsoring them (which means asking for them, creating and bringing tobacco to an elder to run them for my purpose), which is two different things. So, for my purpose I've run and sponsored a bunch - if you need something, if you need help, if you want to celebrate, if you want to do a woopilah (a thank you lodge; your prayers have been answered).

Now I'm just getting to the place where people are asking me to facilitate for them or for other people. I like to work in conjunction with other people. I'm not a healer, a shaman, or a sacred woman. I'm just a human on this planet helping facilitate whatever needs to be done.

What an honor though that that has been asked of you.

It is an honor. It’s like somebody asking you to marry them or to baptize their child, (and I've done all those things as well). I’m sort of now coming into my 40s, and that's becoming more of a thing, right, people are like looking to you in that way. For my culture you don't really become an elder until you’re about 52 years old.

So, you’re considered very young as an elder.

Yes, but that's also because I did come into it (Inipi) young. Now I'm helping facilitate, but I think I've been around it enough to know that sometimes humans can be a little dictaty, and instead of listening to spirit and allowing things to fall how they're supposed to fall, they can sort of have their own agenda. One of my focuses as a person who wants to help anybody in their healing is to take away that icky human aspect of it, which can be the ego or whatever, I'm just here to hold sacred space. And I’ve said that about tattoos and piercings as well. I'm not a healer, I'm not shaman, I'm here to hold sacred space and that's what we're doing. I do know of ways to do that that are more efficient than others. Clearer, more concise or more focused. I do think a good focus ceremony is everything. People just going in there to have an ethnic sauna is not the same thing. And a celebratory one isn't the same thing as a healing one. I'm not in a position to offer healing ones. If I get to that spot at some point in my life, I’d be grateful, but right now if somebody had a real sickness or real issue, I would bring in other helpers or people who have experience with that.

So, it’s important to know your weaknesses and not be afraid to ask for help.

Or using community for what their strengths are. If there is somebody who's really sick and needs to work some stuff out, it needs to not fall on any one person. It needs to be a lot of people coming together to help you. I've been in healing lodges and they are unbelievable. It’s not a choice. You're there for a reason. You're there to do this work and it's going to be painful and it's going to be helpful.

Are there different types of healing? Spiritual, physical, and mental?

All of those ones, but it's not like the other lodges where you can be like “I'm going to take a break now. It’s like, we're here for a fucking really important reason.”

Yeah, and it's not yourself, so stop thinking about yourself.

Exactly, in the 4 doors there is an opportunity for you to think about yourself, there's an opportunity for you to call in your spirit guides, there’s an opportunity for you to make the prayers that are community-based prayers, there's an opportunity for you to make your own personal prayers, there’s an opportunity for you to be thankful and that’s the 4 doors, and that's how we break it down. So, you know, you open it up, you call in all your helpers, you say what the hell you're there for and why you're doing it and you amplify the prayer that is brought you there together. You say your prayers as they are specific to you, and you say thank you for all the prayers that you know will be answered, and that have been answered. That is the four doors.

It’s really beautiful and it’s really simple. I think the reason why I attached myself to it so much and why I’ve received such clarity from it, is because it wasn't based off some grandiose mythology. It’s so simple, so tangible: I feel one way, I come in, I do this thing, I feel another way when I leave. I transform. I’m reborn, you know, life is just a series of rebirths.

Sometimes, we as humans naturally do ritual without really clocking it. We have things that we do the same way each time. Things we do in a really like methodical way and I think the Native Americans in my culture they've just slowed it way down to acknowledge that what you're doing is a thing, it's not just like this unfocused movement. It's actually very intentional. We go in the earth (into the sweat lodge), in a certain way; we exit a certain way. We stay in the natural movement of the universe: the way that the digestive system works or the way that babies come out of the canal. We do it in this way because it's what we've always done. Right now, as a culture, we're just remembering what we've always done because it’s been pulled away from us.

Can you speak more about rituals? I think it's an important topic, especially during this time.

Yeah, oh my God, I think that's the reason why people are starting to go back to the original design; being able to pull these things back into their lives. They're realizing that your health needs to belong to you. They’re figuring out things right now about COVID, that these saunas and these things can be really helpful. If your kid gets a stuffy nose you can take them in a Temescal, rock them to sleep and get their fucking nose cleared out. Or you have a sick loved one and your community wants to come together and pray for that person. They’re now finding out, about this sickness and throughout history a lot of sicknesses, that we need to have this clearing, a focus on respiratory health. Saunas, lodges, and temescals are a powerful way to do this.

What is the importance of water?

The waters of your body are significant. The way we're taught is there are 52 waters in the body. I haven’t been able to count them all, but I know there’s a lot. The importance in the number of waters is that they must be replaced, and the way they’re replaced is not just by ingesting. We replace the waters by soaking. That's why we get such a powerful cleansing in a tub or a steam, we get it from absorption through our skin. Steam is coming into our body a certain way and we're hydrating ourselves. People will say, ‘Oh, I've lost all my waters,’ but you’re replacing your waters and making sure that your waters are moving. A lot of sickness is about certain things being stuck; movements in your body being stuck. When I see the natural and organic movements that take place in a lodge, it looks very much like the body’s anatomy and its movement. We need to mimic those things. That's why it's the micro macro - what we do in a molecular level is what we need to emulate and do in the world; how we function as a community is how we should function within ourselves. Those concepts are starting to reveal themselves to the people.

Water is life and water is healing. We have been so separated from that. There’s nothing that will remind you of how important it is than sitting in a lodge wishing for a cold glass of water, while you’re soaking wet, mind you, but you’re not drinking. The sweat is coming out of you and that stuff is being purged from you. So yeah, it's a good thing.

When you're in complete darkness, what are your thoughts when you’re in the sweat lodge?

I've gotten into a bit of a routine. I've done it for so long, that I know which part is what without being told. I take that first round to acknowledge myself and my spirit helpers. I welcome them in my mind, say how much I miss them, and reintroduce myself to them. It was taught to me that you introduce yourself, when you're in those settings, in a very traditional way. ‘This is who I am, ______ (insert spirit name or original name). It’s grounding to say your name. The way it was taught to me is you say the name of your parents. That right there is a grounding statement. Acknowledging who you are on this planet. If you have a spirit name (those are things you don't share in this context, you'd only say it in the spirit of things), you will say it out loud or psychically, however you feel comfortable. That would be the time to acknowledge your spirit’s name and that is a very grounding start for me.

How are you given a spirit name?

Those types of things come to you gifted in ceremony, whether it be your spirit telling you or somebody interpreting and telling you in ceremony (often a shaman like person, a healer, facilitator, or somebody who speaks to spirit). In our community there are people who can specifically do that. Not me. Over the years I have been gifted a few names and I carry those with me. I use those names in that context and that's where my mind takes me first. I'm a singer and a drummer. I pray a lot through song and drumming. A lot of times my prayer comes in that form whereas other people may get quiet or whisper the songs. I'm usually part of a group of people who can hold space for song. We do four songs through each door. Those of us who have the gift of song, take turns singing.

Were your parents gifted in that as well?

Nope! No, my dad does lodges with me though, which is weird because he is a Catholic, but he likes them. He’s getting a little old for them now. You must hunch over and crawl in on your hands and knees, but we still try to make him do it.  

I know the power of focusing your thoughts on other people's purposes. I think that takes a little while to cultivate because when you step inside, you start thinking about your own shit right away. That’s your default, like ‘oh, me, shit, my life.’ But I think an experienced person can put all that aside. There's a time and place for it, and you just really pick up on what's being laid down by the person sponsoring. The person sponsoring has a special spot they sit in and they speak what their purpose is, “here to celebrate this, I'm here to ask for help with this, I'm struggling with this.” The one sponsoring is usually the one that is going to help set the tone. I can immediately latch on to that and make that my focus during that time, but I think that that comes from having mastered prayer. I learned to pray in the lodge. 

This is a clear delineation I'd like to make about prayer. There's a difference between, ‘I want to pray for,’ and ‘praying.’ So, think, the first step is, ‘I want to pray for this, this and this…’ which is fine, that's what you're praying for. That is that person getting their words for it, but there is a difference between that prayer and what an actual prayer looks like when you're having that conversation directly with spirit.  

That prayer has been lost. The majority of us are not taught how to pray.

I honestly go back to Nina Simone’s song where she says in one of her songs (Alicia sings), ‘I had a mother who could pray.’ To me, you know, we talk about praying in the Catholic or Christian sense. Reading or reciting this thing you learned over time or through the church. And that's something, it is, it’s powerful, but it's not the same thing as having that direct relationship with spirit Indian, like in a conversation, directly, unbashful, you know, praying.

So, if Xochiti decides to walk away from this way of life, and not sweat lodge ever again, or go into a medicine meeting ever again, she will have had a mom who knew how to pray. Then as a result, hopefully they will be able to find that as well. I feel like, if any of the reasons that I've been given the honor of sitting and holding sacred space for people (or marrying them, or blessing their kids), the only reason is because I know how to pray. People acknowledge that as something they're still figuring out, and I, without any care in the world, am able to stop whatever I'm doing, and say, “this is what I need, this is what’s going on, thank you, Great Spirit.” So yeah, that's the kicker, right? It’s being able to make that intention and follow through with that prayer.

I think it's very powerful - giving words. I think collectively we've had that taken away from us, from indoctrination of religion, where we were told that we had to have these vessels, these humans, these priests, these churches, these other things outside of ourselves to be able to get our message or our conversation to spirit. It did a lot of damage to our people. We're still figuring out how to bring it back to ourselves. To take it back to our own design and take it to that place where we don't let other people dictate our connection. That's huge. Sometimes, especially in the lodges, I feel super comfortable. Personally, I will pray out loud because I do think that, ‘monkey see, monkey do, right?’ Like sometimes, we need to hear it before we can do it. I think that when you hear other people pray, it gives you permission to also be in that movement. You know what I mean? Like other people’s sadness or other people’s struggles. It’s all a reflection of who we are.

Part 3.

Smoking mirror

There is a ceremony that's done in a lodge, which is the smoking mirror. That is what it’s called. The smoking mirror. It is a little bit of Aztec mythology. It's like you're conscious of your subconscious mind. Your conscious mind is the one we sort of function out into the world. So, your subconscious is looking into a smoking mirror. You’re looking at yourself, but it's not yourself. It's this deluded self, a deeper self. It’s beyond the eyes.

The discreetly poco ceremony is held in complete darkness. You're looking at the water as a mirror. You're doing this deep internal work on who you are – ‘what's going on in there.’ That's a lot of what the lodge is. That deep internal work, like what's not being said. The other side of you. The duality. It’s not about negative and positive, or you know, the good and the bad. It’s more of the duality of life. Darkness inside of you isn't bad, it's just the unspoken. It's just the deeper part of yourself.

The polarization doesn’t service us. The English language is so lame that it doesn't encompass what dark means. It’s important not be scared of the side of yourself that is unspoken, or the difficult parts of the darkness. To not have it be framed as a negative thing, but as merely adjusting other parts of your humanity. I think that the lodge is very scary for people for that reason. We've spent a lot of time living in the conscious mind and the subconscious can be scary because it's carries hurt, sadness, and the trauma.

And we’re taught so much to just be like very hopeful and move right past it.

Yes, we don't really take opportunities to go there very often, you know, but it behooves us to do that cause that's where tumors come from - when we stuff it all in there, right?

Yeah, exactly, dis-ease, right?

I think what’s missing from our society and why people are struggling with their adulthood, teenage hood, elderhood, is because we have taken ritual out of our lives. With ritual comes a deep marking of these transitions. Transformation happens all the time, but if we don't always mark it, or we don't make note of it, it can sometimes feel like we're just treading water. Not making any headway. Ritual and marking of the transition, or using ritual as a way to say, ‘I was one person, and now I'm something else,’ is not only letting yourself know that you've changed, but letting the community know that you changed, and letting your partner know that you changed, letting your children know you’ve changed.

That rite of passage.

Right, the passage has been taken out of this culture. It's been dumbed down to these lame ass versions, which isn't enough for our soul to really take in that we're better than we were before, or we're doing better. People spend their whole lives struggling with their childhood, struggling with their one relationship that went bad. Struggling because they've never gotten a chance to formally move past it. What ritual does, by bringing ritual back in your life (with lodges or the other rituals that are out there), is an acknowledgement. It makes us clear. It’s a moment in time where we acknowledge ‘this is where you were then, and this is who you are now.’

Can you describe a transformation you’ve had in a sweat lodge?

For me, a big one I would say, was not one lodge but was a series of 13 lodges. When I was 23, 24 years old (my God, 20 years ago), I got a call from the universe to do my vision quest ceremony. A ceremony that happens, I'm sure you've heard of it, where you sit on top of a mountain for four days or four nights without any food, water, sleep. I got the call to do that and the interpreter at that time, a Lakota man named David Swallow, interpreted my call and said this is what you have to do to prepare. And of course, cause it's me, it's always ‘balls to the wall,’ spirit said that I need to do 13 lodges in a row. Basically, one a month for a year; 13 lodges with 100 stones each, and then go on the vision quest - for my comblecha.

That was when it went from very casual, ‘yeah, let’s go to a lodge, you know, let’s do this thing, this is a great community-based thing,’ sort of dabbling with it once every few, to like a full-on lifestyle change. The instructions were that I had to do it all myself. I had to facilitate and sponsor. I had to do all the spirit food. I had to do 150 prayer ties each time, keep my rocks separate from everybody else’s rocks (nobody else could use my rocks), and I had to build the cradle and tend the fire - for each of them, for an entire year, through the winter in CO.

Did you have anxiety or fear going into this?

No, because I was in my warrior hood, so it was a challenge. Warriorhood, you know, a part of life for you in your 20’s, when you’re like ‘I got this!’ And I got fucking direct instruction from Spirit, I was fucking stoked! At that time my teacher was like, ‘wow, ok, I guess you’re going to do this.’ I did it for that whole time. I learned so much. It became second nature to be able to make the foods without looking; to be able to tie ties without fussing; being able to make a cradle in the freezing cold for the stones; to place the stones in a way that they wouldn't fall (to know the stones so well that they would not fall).

Becoming one with that ritual - Is that why you were called to do that?

Absolutely. I mean people will say, ‘you're doing this preparation for the omblecha.’ What does that mean, to prepare, you know? Get your head around the fact that you’re going to be on top of a mountain? There's no way to get your head around that! Not going to eat for four days. Get your head around that. But, you put yourself in a situation where you can rise and learn, change and transform, and at the end of it you become a fucking expert. You are ready to have that challenge. To be able to see that, ‘I did that and now I can do this.’

So, your vision quest was after tending to all these 100 ceremonies?

Yes, and the funny part is, I’m still processing my vision quest – those four days - what happened there? Some days I don't know what happened there. I mean, it was very ethereal. It was in another realm, right? it was in a spiritual world. When you take away food, water and sleep you become one with the earth. You become transparent and you stop having human like things. You start having a spirit experience, and that's what they're asking for. That’s why it’s called a comblecha. It’s a cry for a vision. And at that time, I did have that experience. Everything that you asked for, comes to light. I had a full circle moment with that.

During the series of ceremonies, I had a very in-depth connection with another woman who was in ceremony at a different place, at the same camp, but a different location on the Mason. She was in a Kiva, and I was on top of the Mesa. Somehow, we were having some sort of dance during our ceremonies. They were happening at the same time, in the psychic or the spirit realm. She was in the earth, and I was on top of the earth during that time. We came down around the same time, and we ended up crossing paths in the lodge coming down and in the showers, after everything was said and done.

When you’re in the lodge, you have your words taken away from you. You no longer need words. You're not a speaking person anymore. You're just a psychic person at that point. Anyway, we were young, when this in-depth connection happened. It was 20 years ago, so when I ran into her this last summer, I didn't really remember her. I remember her spirit, but I didn’t remember her. I didn’t know where it was coming from. And the funny part is that she says, “you remember me?” and I was like, “kinda,” and she’s like, “you know, ‘dadadada…’ (she reminded me of the situation we had), and I was like, “Shit! (I recalled). She was like, “you know, I look back on that and I would never have gotten through that experience if you hadn't been so prepared for your ceremony.” And I was like, “what?” and she was like, “yeah, I showed up there and I didn’t have fucking shit and I was like totally unprepared.” And she was like, “but because you had so much shit and you had your stuff together and you had been preparing for so long, it went exactly as it should have, and we had all the things we needed, ‘you had it.’ And she was like, “your preparation carried me through that ceremony.” I was like, “right on, I remember being quite prepared myself, thank you.” Heh.

I didn't realize that it was something anybody else could see, or that it was helpful, or whatever. We had a moment where we chatted it up about that experience, and I was like “yeah well, it was a crazy time.” We hadn’t seen each other in 20 years, and I honestly wouldn't have recognized her visually, but because we had that psychic connection, it was super powerful. So, on that, I've transformed. That might have been my rite of passage, a little late from teenage hood into adulthood. Before that I would never have thought of having a child, or that I was on a spiritual path of any specific sort. I mean I was always on a spiritual path, but I would say that that one made me feel very much that this was my spiritual path.

And of course, you get the cry. You get the vision and it's undeniable. It’s no longer somebody telling you what you should do. It’s being told to you what to do and you taking that information and doing what you will with it. I think it’s powerful. For many of us, we leave that in the hands of the leaders, or the spiritual people, shamans, priests, or whomever. We thought that was their body of knowledge, instead of that knowledge belonging to us.

In that ceremony, it had nothing to do with anybody else but me. I think that’s the design. One part of that design, because I can't say too much about it, is that you hear a lot about alters - people having alters. A lot of Catholicism has altars. In the Inipi ceremony, you learn that you are the altar, that's the biggest takeaway. The altar is no longer this physical thing that you put your little crystals on, you are the altar. You carry that work wherever you go, and that will suffice when your business gets taken away, your relationships fail, your child leaves home, you lose a loved one. There's no more need for this physical marking. It is something that you hold within yourself wherever you go and that is so fucking helpful. I think that was a huge transformation for me.

And you’ve seen that in effect now, with the pandemic, and everything that we were going through.

To be reminded of that right now is important. I think a lot of people are learning that right now. Without so many words, they're realizing that they hold that space, that a lot of the stuff that we've come to know is being taken away from us, and what does that really mean, because we can build it back up wherever. They’re many gifts coming through right now, with the pandemic. People are being reminded of who the fuck they are, what they need, and what’s important. That’s one of the things coming through during this time. People are going back to basics. What’s important? your family. What’s important? Your health. What’s important? Your survival. What’s important? Your food, being able to cultivate food or find it. What’s important? Water.

We’re learning what we don't know and putting our focus there. Like what is this missing component that we need to get back to. Even this stupid political climate is forcing people to re-engage with the parts of their bodies that were shut down. Their voice. So much throat chakra work happening right now. I'm not even a chakra person, but I can tell you that that's a real fucking thing. People are getting their voices back. Whether that voice is crying out in the wilderness, protesting, telling their parents that their fucking wrong, if it's, you know, standing up to your conservative uncle. Whatever the fuck it is, they're getting their voices back. They’re being able to use it and advocate for themselves. After years and years of being silenced by the oppressive culture, it's powerful to watch people strengthen their voice. I’m trying to encourage it as much as possible.

One of my gifts, that I've been learning through this thing (because I've always had my voice, that’s not a problem), is to shut the fuck up. The opposite. Start listening more. Overall, I’ve learned the power in saying nothing, not responding, being quiet. For some of us it's a new thing. I've fought a lot of battles and I've been in a lot of conversations, struggles within the community, and sometimes saying nothing is the most powerful thing of all. Let people work it out. People become dependent on my commentary, and I shouldn't always be. Some of the most powerful lodges I’ve been in, is when nobody says a fucking thing. Sometimes there’s time to talk and sometimes they’re times not to talk. I found that in tattooing, as well. I have clients that will go for hours and just talktalktalk, and then the same client comes in two months later, and there’s 2 hours of nothing. I think that you go to the tattoo artist that speaks to you for that reason. Sometimes the clients ‘go to’ artist is someone to be quiet with.

I mean that's how I feel when I choose a hairdresser. I go to one person if I’m feeling chatty, or another if I’m not up to talking. 

Part 4.

More on cultural assimilation and appropriation.

This is tough because every single one of us really is indigenous. Somewhere, we belong to the earth’s original design. Somewhere, on the planet. Some of us are further removed from our original design than others. European people are much further removed. White people in a sense have a lot more work to do to connect to their cultural roots. I'm only, if you think about it (like in the location of my ancestors), only maybe 200 years removed, whereas some of you guys (European descent) are a lot. It makes it weird and difficult because people are going to judge you on that and say things like, ‘maybe you don't really belong in these spaces.’

From what's been taught to me, the lodge belongs in all four directions. That includes all people of the earth. Much like the medicine wheel has been taught to us: red, yellow, white, and black. That essentially signifies all four groups of the planet. Red being Native American man, yellow being the Asian folks, white being the people of European descent, and black being Africans. I’ve never been in a lodge where all four were represented. We talk about it, we fantasize about it, we pray about it, we're happy when it happens, if it happens. It doesn't happen that often, so even within the native community there's still some sort of disconnect; where people are not inviting Africans into the lodge or Asians into the lodge even though chances are, they have some of this in their original design. But white people have found their way there and have connected, and who are we to say that that connection isn't authentic.

Because that’s their relationship with spirit.

Exactly, and you have to respect that. Many people of European descent have that connection and I honor that. They're in those ceremonies and they do well, they do right, they understand the protocol. They do the thing and it's good - it’s not a problem. I think the problem comes when they have not harnessed a relationship with the community that has gifted that to them. They say they get the idea that this is the thing and then they go and take it and morph it into some other thing and then they sell it to the fucking highest bidder. That can be problematic, right.

Never pay for a ceremony. But, on that topic, we are now getting to a place where you need to compensate your healers and help them procure some of the cost do this. When I did that ceremony for 12 months it cost me money. It cost me real time and money.  And that's what any ceremony requires, so we need to be prepared to compensate the people that help us with those journeys, but it's not like you're paying for a ceremony, you know, you compensate your healers for helping you with your journey. In that way, it's different than being like, ‘here's a Hiawaska weekend for $1600 and we’ll teach you to connect with God.’  And there’s a lot of that, and that's a first warning sign that maybe you shouldn’t be there, because these things should happen organically and authentically.

But people are almost so desperate in a way, for that connection, that they’ll pay for it.  

Yea, and money sometimes pollutes the purpose in intention. You're not supposed to be at a sweat lodge because you paid to be there. You’re supposed to be there because your part of an important prayer. The faith element in of all of this, which is your call to do this (spirits calling you to be in this way). If you put yourself in those circles, that opportunity will arise. You will be invited in, you will not be left out, you will never be an orphan in this way of life, you will be brought in by mother and spirit, and you will be cradled in that fucking womb like everybody else. But you’ve got to have faith in that. You can't force that connection; you have to let it be.

If you force it, sometimes you end up being that person who's first one running to the door, embarrassing yourself, you know what I mean, cause you aren’t ready, you haven't done your part, you haven't done your things to get you there, you haven’t put yourself in the right circles, or whatever.’ A little faith would be helpful. People need to have faith, that if this is their lifestyle, their way of life that they want, they must surrender instead of trying to control it, and it’ll happen.

I didn’t know I was going to go on that fucking journey. I didn’t necessarily want it. When I told my teacher I had that vision or that dream come to me, she was like, ‘we gotta get that interpreted.’ And I was like, ‘Oooh I don't know about that, I don't know about that like the next part gets a little crazy, and I don’t want to be strapped into something that's too crazy!’ And I sure as hell did, but I had to surrender and I couldn’t deny this dream, this vision. I had to do it. And so, the appropriation thing, to me, is all about intention. If you come at it with what am I going to get out of this, solely, you’re an asshole. You have not been paying attention to the movement of the universe, which is, what can I bring to it, as a result maybe I'll get something out of it. It's all about the approach.

To me, it's how you approach a native person or a native ceremony. We have forgotten that these are gifts that are given. That we need to be home; we need to be grounded; we need to come at things in a good way, in a humble way. When somebody comes to me and asks for a spiritual favor they come with offerings. You don't ask for something without bringing something, that's just a law of the universe.

Most people don't know that. We’re used to asking for all the things and not coming with anything in return. That's a cultural problem. Instead of saying, this is something that I need, and this is what I want to do to receive it, it has to be a cohesive give and take relationship. And not with just humans, but with animals, with children, with the universe, and with the elements. If you're going to harvest sage (you feel that you need to burn that for your home or whatever), if you've never been taught to harvest sage, I'll tell you, ‘Don’t take it by its fucking root!’ That is not rocket science. You don't take it by its fucking root. You leave it there to fucking grow. You cut it, and you make an offering.  You get something, but you give something. It's so practical, but people miss it completely. The natives were not so mystique and mystical and so far-fetched.

But we’ve created that in our mind.

Absolutely, and we’ve missed out on the simplicity of it all, which is that, how you harvest matters. How you take the water from the earth and the relationship you have with the water, matters. How you ingest the water, how does the prayer ingest the water, each time you ingest the water. Everybody needs to slow it the fuck down, and stop selling it on Etsy, that's a start. And when people give you critique, or criticism, or implore questions, you say ‘thank you.’ You don't push back, say, ‘thank you, I want to know more.’

So much ego, and everybody's subject to it. I got into an online, kind of back and forth, with another Native American, like, did you know that Native Americans don't even know about other Native Americans? I'm talking to this northern Plains Arapahoe guy and he's trying to quiz me about Native Americans, and I’m like, “bro, I get it,” and he's like, “oh, well, which tribe are you from?” And I start talking about it, and he’s like, “well what’s that?”

People are still learning - the whole picture, the history, the whole story. When we say that the history of this culture and these people have been left off of the history books, we really mean it. It's really been left out of the history books. Nobody, not even Native Americans, have been educated about the vastness of the culture.

How many tribes are there; how are their relationships interwoven; what parts of their history, of their interrelationships, were woven, and which parts weren’t. It’s really disheartening to know how much of the educational aspect has been missing. Native Americans don't know there are Native Mexicans, and the Northern Plain folks don’t know that peyote comes from Mexico. When we say the borders are fucking fake, and pretend, they really are. Northern Mexico is still southern United States. That's where the peyote gardens are. All the people of those tribes use that peyote for ceremonial purposes. Somebody had to travel South to get it, you know.

With all the changes that are happening, and the awakenings that are happening in this culture, it is in our best interest (as native people) to gently correct people in a way that they can hear it. I know people will say, it's not our job to deliver in this good way, but I think it is. It is a teaching moment. It is also important how we deliver the message that you've stepped over the line, or that you need to watch how you interact with this thing, because it is important. It’s an integral thing, and if you don't that's when you've got people dying in a sweat lodge in Tucson, by some like crazy shaman asshole who doesn't know the rules of the game. And that shits really happening. In fact, it's happening right now in South America in the shipibo group Hiyawakska ceremonies. And I make this warning because I see it happen - where people go to ceremony before they're ready, and they're deep in the jungle doing ceremony with true shamans (in like the shipibo culture) and their eating Hiyawakska (that's a powerful medicine) and their freaking out, and in some groups they’ve like hurt, killed, because their forcing a transformation that they're not ready for.

They’re out of their minds completely.  

In the spiritual community we've had conversations about it. What's happening here. I've never seen anything like that in the native community. This is our lifestyle, our way of life, to come together, to pray. Nobody's freaking the fuck out.

It’s because they’re not ready.  

They haven't been taught. They're not on the red road. Nobody's been nurturing that to where it needs to be, to be able to help with a transformation. They've been given a tool they don’t know how to use. It’s too much. We have too much sickness, too much indoctrination that needs to be purified before exposing them to that. The people who are guiding them aren’t knowing what to do. It's scary and I have genuinely never seen it happen in an all-native ceremony, ever. I've seen people cry, I’ve seen people go to their knees, I’ve seen people struggle, but not hop to their feet and start stabbing people (or whatever the fuck happened in South America). That is the result of pushing it too far too fast, instead of going through the steps to build a relationship, and having a relationship that can be difficult, but will help in transformation.

It’s going back to the basics the simplicity that you keep speaking about.

This culture is a give it to me now, give it to me fast, give it to me when I want it - here's the money, let's do this, I want to be able to have this under my belt. That's just not how it's going to happen. It’s lifelong. I’m acutely aware that I am only in mid-life. I’m only beginning to work with some of these tools and powers. I've been gifted some of these opportunities and I'm still discovering.

I have been taught throughout the years, different things to keep ourselves safe, and to keep ourselves well in our circles. Take for example Sundance. A lot of the old Sundancers had Hep C, like they’re just old alcohol abusing people that have long term bloodborne pathogen illnesses. So, when you go to Sundance, and you're doing blood ritual, you're acutely aware of these things. How to keep yourself safe. But it's not very spoken and it's not very formal. It's something you just learn from by participating.

Now that we're in an airborne pathogen lifestyle, in a global pandemic, we’re having to be more aware of this stuff. It’s time to start revisiting the things that we do naturally and organically to keep ourselves safe from potential contamination. Some of us have survived plagues. The rituals that we do have to continue. They don't just get put down because we're having a pandemic. We have to do these things as it is our lifestyle, but how do we do it in a clean way to keep ourselves as safe as possible.

I have been putting some real thought into writing a document on what it is to pray, to be participating in these things, in this time, so that we can move forward with lessons that I've learned. Like, we take a towel into the sweat lodge not just for protecting us from the hot, because it can be really hot (it gets super-hot and you want to have some protection) but to make sure all of your spit and all of your stuff goes into this fucking rag that you hold sacred. That you keep to yourself.  

For medicine meetings, we sometimes get fed a sacrament. So, we need to think, how do we do that in a way that it is clean, so that we don't have to share spit with others moving forward. I have faith that spirits are going to kill in all the ways they can, but I'm still a scientist. We still need to be aware; you know, I don't want homeboys bloodborne pathogens. When we do blood ritual it needs to be done in a certain way. Our ancestors knew and were able to do those kinds of rituals. They weren’t going through the same sort of pandemic that we are going right now, but they knew that your blood is sacred and belongs to you, and nobody should fucking touch it. I mean we are like that about our hair, for Christ sake. We don’t even want our hair on you, so we keep our hair to ourselves. Those are things that were just known, instead of having to be taught. Keeping ourselves safe and keeping ourselves well spiritually and otherwise can be more formal going forward.

You should document it.

I mean I have to because a lot of people won’t step back into those circles without having more instruction.

How does it feel to be back in the sweat lodge?  

It felt so good, it felt great. There’s a saying that the best way to share your spit with the world is to sing. It’ so bad to say. Now we're in a hot environment, in close quarters, sometimes with strangers, fucking singing. Getting back in the lodge is pretty much the most taboo thing you can do right now. For some of us we have to find that grey area to survive. We have to find that middle of the road. We have to go back.

I've been back in the lodge with some close family and friends; people I've interacted with pretty regularly without a mask. It has been fine. We did have a moment last lodge. We were doing a lodge for a Navajo, a daney brother of mine who was struggling. His wife died of covid. He was very acutely worried about covid and so was everybody that was attending. It was the elephant in the room. We had forgotten that one of the people we invited was working in an environment where they were encouraged not to wear masks (they had a kind of crazy boss in a crazy work scenario). We uninvited him, which has never happened before. I've never had that, where I was like, ‘you know what, maybe you sit this one out.’ We made this decision because we, as a community, decided that that felt like a weak link in a collective prayer of safety. All of us had been masking publicly, and in our jobs, and out of respect for our own homeboy who lost his wife, we asked him to sit out.

You had to make that judgement call and do what’s necessary.

There are going to be moments, and times like that. I am one of the weak links because I work with the public. If I was uninvited, I would not take it personally. It's just a matter of what needs to happen right now. Getting back in the lodge was great. It was hot. It was good. My intuition told me that the sickness would not survive in that space. Now that might be a little bit of ‘woohoo’ for some people, but I felt safe and that felt good. Now that might just be my mind and me abandoning all my science, or whatever, but what we understand about viruses is very little. We're still figuring out so much. They can be very strong and very weak all at the same time. It may be have been the heat or an energy of its own that wasn't invited.  

Yes, this virus can sometimes seem selective.

Absolutely, we’re still learning so much. So, at that particular lodge, I felt pretty good. I felt like we didn't have any run ins with it. I feel like when you are functioning in the spirit world, sometimes you can sense when certain things are happening for certain people.

And perhaps you did when you kindly asked that man to step out.

For sure. Going forward, it may be a matter of people getting tested on site; going in by family, people you’ve already interacted with; certain procedures for cleaning out the lodge. We clean out the lodge between ceremonies in a specific way, but maybe there's more that we do to make sure that it's getting aired out, so that people are feeling good about it. I often wonder about saunas. Wood is porous and the wood absorbs so much, whereas I can sweep up dirt. But also, wood has its amicrobial aspects. There is also a healing aspect of wood. The heat is sanitizing as well. It’s how we kill endospores, the heat and pressure.

Within the Navajo people, women and men don't pray together. When I was with my Daney brother, in this last lodge we had, he was having a first-time experience being in the lodge with women. Some people don't do well with that. They find that it's an important time to separate and meditate separate. It’s also been told to me that women have their own way of purifying each month. Because it’s naturally occurring for women, they don't need it to happen in the lodge, whereas men don't have it, so they need it to be separate.

For me, it’s a little tough. Now we're getting to this place in the spiritual world, where we realize that men and women have both sides to them. It's hard to delineate what's needed and what’s not needed. Like if you’re a woman, it now doesn’t necessarily mean you have your moon anytime, or maybe you did and now you no longer have it. There’s going to be specific lodges for specific things. Now there are certain lodges where women are on one side and men on the other. There are different designs that are interesting.

That brings up a lot, like being a non-binary being, like where do I belong, and how is that seen to other people.

It’s a conversation amongst native people right now, a lot, about how we deal with some of these variations. It’s tough to know what the right thing is and not be phobic. Try to understand and accept people for who they are and how they present. I like being in an all-women’s lodge, it’s lovely, it has its place absolutely, but when that door shuts we do cease to be our physical selves, so why does our physical genitalia matter. I do think it's all about intention. If I'm going through the change of life into elderhood and losing my moon time, I need the support of women. It’s not unheard of for me to put together a lodge of just women so we can talk about just women stuff. Um, do I want a trans woman in there? I don't know, will she be able to give me advice about losing my period? I don't know, you know what I mean? But do I believe that she has the right to be there? Yeah, absolutely. There’s going to be things that comes up like this.

Do I think there’s power in an all-men’s lodge? I do. I’ve watched it happen. My partner, the father of my child, was in an all-men’s lodge right after my child was born. He said that that was the most powerful thing he'd ever experienced in his life - a bunch of dads sitting around. He just became a dad. He needed that medicine, the medicine of the men come to his rescue in that special time. I can't tell you what it's like to be a dad. I don't know. He needed to hear from other dads at that point. I think that gender separation is a thing, and a powerful thing. It can be used in a good way. I’ve also been in lodges where only a man pours the water or only a woman pours the water; lodges where they insisted that a man and a woman poured the water. What are you going to do, like shit, it turns out it’s a multifaceted medicine, that's great.

Yes, my favorite memories are being in the sauna with my sister, mom, grandma and great grandma. It was our tradition to get together as a family and the women would go first and then the men.

And they’re naked in towels or how do you present yourselves?

Yes, naked and we would lie our towels on the benches beaneath us. We would take four or five rounds of only like 10-15 minutes. But it was also a way to cleanse ourselves. We would scrub down the last round after sweating and rinse off in the heat, it felt so good. But yeah, there was something special about being in the raw with my kin. I have this amazing photo of my great grandmother sitting on the bench in bliss.

I want to be naked with my grandma!

One of the things that has come up on the topic of culture appropriation is that Native Americans are very modest. We do not enter this sweat naked. We usually have dresses on have towels. We believe that covering your body in the lodge is about protection. There are places where people emulate Native American lodges and are naked. This is totally foreign to us. It makes sense to be in the sauna naked, but for me, it does not make sense in a community based sweat lodge.

I have been challenged with that a few times throughout history, where I’m like, no. It has been an interesting topic. A lot of different people are taking their own interpretation and doing it differently. This can sometimes result in very big clash. I was invited to do a lodge in Ireland, and they were doing it naked, and I was like, ‘yeah, no I'm good. Sorry, like you can all be naked if you want, but it’s not how I pray at all.

Part of the culture is that we have a lot of respect for boundaries and how things were. We’re in a time and place right now where people are having sex with each other's wives and it's not appropriate, you know what I mean, and the children aren’t comfortable with going in naked because that's not the culture they were raised in. We’re trying to make a space where everybody feels at home. Also, its counter intuitive to us because it actually is really really hot to the point of where you want to protect your skin.

Because you're like what is the average temperature, nearing like 200 degrees?

Yeah, so to have that protection is important. If the kids are going to be in the lodge for long periods of time we place a towel up in the Willow. Make a little tent for them - a protection. They will sleep or sit behind that towel in a cooler space so that they can handle it for longer. So, we've always used towels to cover our bodies. It doesn't make any sense for us to not have that protection. And of course, you're going to take the dress and the towel off and cleanse yourself when you get out. So those are some sort of differences that come up, like if a white woman were to show up at a lodge and get mostly naked, we would probably just have an extra dress and throw it to her.

Now, I've been in Mexico and in Temescals, where there were women in swimsuits, like a Saran, which would be fine. But you know, when we're in sacred ceremony we are trying to deal with one part of the consciousness, which is the spiritual part. We really try to discourage the sexuality aspect of things, and unfortunately, we are raised in a world where tits and ass take our attention. We are part of a society that prioritizes that, almost to a sickness. Out of respect for trying to focus the mind to one part of our psyche, we try to remove the distractions and dress similarly. It puts us all on the same playing field. Some people would say ‘you're just being really conservative,’ but I'm like, ‘no dude, I think it's safe to say that we need to destroy the distractions to get to the thing.’ I’m comfortable being a fire keeper, and it would make absolutely no sense for my titties to be out while I was tending fire. So again, back to that Native rationality, like, ‘that's your shit, put your pecker away.’

And it is pretty sad that we have to say that, but it’s the truth.